A White Guy Confronting Racism with Jared Karol

Jared Karol - A White Guy Confronting Racism - powered by Happy Scribe

Sacha Thompson is a respected and certified DEI coach. For the next 30 minutes, we'll get an exclusive look at some of her conversations with others in the field. Welcome to DEI After 5.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to DEI After 5. Today's conversation is going to be one that you are going to be happy that you have logged in to be a part of. And so today we're going to be talking to Jared Karol, who is a consultant and an anti-racism author. So, Jared, I want to just thank you for being here with us today.

Thank you, Sacha. It's always a pleasure to talk with you. Whatever the format and occasion is, I always appreciate it. So thank you so much.

Yeah. I mean, we're going to just dive right in because we've had several conversations. And where do we start? Where do we start? Well, first of all, how did you get into this work?

Gosh, how did I get into this work? So I like to say that if the world was equitable, I wouldn't even be alive. And I know that's a strong opening statement. But what I mean by that is my father was a gay man, but in the late 60s, early 70s, when he was in College, kind of coming into his own, he didn't feel safe to come out to the world. Homosexuality was still pathologized. It was criminal in some States, et cetera, et cetera. So he married a woman who ended up being my mom had a kid, me. Right. I was born in 1973. And as we got a little bit further historically, things opened up a little bit for him where he felt safe to come out. And he came out as a gay man. My parents divorced, et cetera. So there's so much more to the story. Obviously, those are the circumstances of my birth. But really, I like to say that it took me many years to kind of even understand that context of what I was born into. But now that I know it and I've known it for 20 plus years, that's like just one example of the type of context that we're living in, whether it's sexual orientation, race, gender, so many different marginalizations that people face that when my dad died, he was HIV positive. He died of AIDS in 2000. I was 27. I hadn't really started doing the work, but I've been exposed to enough of it through my dad and through just maturity and stuff. And then when he dies, you know what? I don't want to be that guy anymore. That guy who doesn't care, doesn't know, isn't interested, etcetera. I want to be this guy. And when I say this guy, I want to be the guy who does get it, who does care, who does work for change, does work for equity, does work for justice. And so it's been a journey almost 21 and a half years of doing the work as a teacher for many years and now more recently as a speaker, as a facilitator, as a coach, et cetera. So that's the snapshot. That's the two minute version of why. And I'm sure we'll dive into more of the details as we continue to talk.

Yeah, I always appreciate hearing that story from you, because when I do this work, I often share with colleagues or folks that I'm consulting for the diversity iceberg. And it's like what is below the surface that shapes how you see and operate in the world that nobody would know unless they had a conversation with you. And so I'm always reminded of that because you have white guys that are a part of that that make you who you are. And so how did you now go from kind of LGBTQ plus rights and other aspects of diversity into racism? Because that's tough.

Yeah, it is. Gosh, you know what it was, Sacha, is it was a realization that I was missing out on humanity, my own. It started with my dad. Right. It was very personal. So a little more of the backstory is that my dad didn't actually tell me he was gay until I was 14, almost 15. I was a freshman in high school. So imagine late 70s, early 80s. I'm growing up with a single mom, parents, divorced. Dad lives in San Francisco. I grew up in San Diego. Not too uncommon to have divorced parents. Right. So I go up and I didn't know he was my dad, and he lived far away. And I got to see him four, five, six times a year. And so then when he told me, it was this embarrassment, this confusion, this shame, this is the late 80s, Reagan still President. There's still a lot of stigma. And so then as I grew up and became more comfortable with it, it was like, wow, look at all the things I'm missing out on. I know that sounds almost selfish, but it was about me in a little bit, but about me so that I could be in community with different people that I had up to that point, not been familiar with, not interested, didn't know anything about different people from different backgrounds. And so I realized that, yes, my initial kind of start was the LGBTQ community and learning and growing and sympathizing and empathizing with that community and becoming more active in support of advocacy for that community. And then it's just as I kept part of my journey. And this is like early 2000s. Right. Part of my journey was just reading and listening and watching, going to events and immersing and meeting new people. And I started to realize that while each group kind of has their own histories of marginalization and oppression, that there are similarities in that they're seen as less than that, they are dehumanized. And so as I started to meet more people, like actually actual people, colleagues, friends, you go to events, whatever you meet people, it's like, Whoa, what do I not know about people? What do I not know about black people? What do I not know about Asian people? Because I just had no relationships for 20 plus years of my life. And so it really became about this kind of wanting to connect with more and more people and share our humanity together. And so that was coupled with this continuous learning and growing and reading and, of course, the work I was doing as well. And so it really became about relationships. So again, that's kind of the short 25 year history of how I came to it. But it's really based in just I feel pretty comfortable, although it's the learning still always happening, but I feel pretty comfortable that I understand social injustice and why and how it happens and how it impacts and affects different groups and intersectional groups as well. More recently, the last couple of years, I just started writing about race and racism on LinkedIn even before the spring and summer of 2020. And then when that shit storm came, it just was like, okay, let's keep going. And here we are almost two years later, and it's unfortunately still highly relevant to be talking about and writing about and trying to figure out how to make change in these contexts.

Yeah, I had a conversation and I've been having this ongoing conversation with a couple of people lately around this work and especially everything that has happened post the murder of George Floyd, Brianna Taylor, Amad, Aubrey, that time period. And it was how the question that was given to this group was, how does white supremacy show up in the work that we do as DEI consultant? And it took me a while to kind of figure it out. And what clicked for me probably about two weeks ago, was it's one thing to have conversations and build awareness. It's another thing to actively try to dismantle systems that are inequitable. And as I talk to particularly my white male colleagues that are cisgendered, kind of the epitome of privilege. And I'm putting kind of air quotes on that because, again, of the layers, if you're living the good life, why would you want to dismantle that? Why would you want to take that away? And so that's kind of where I've been struggling with some people that I've been working with, because I'm like, we're doing this awareness thing, which is great, but. And what like, how are we dismantling the systems within these organizations?

Yeah. Super insightful, Sacha. I think it's a yes, and I think it's a both end because I know you're an equity practitioner, so you're familiar with all the language in the context that you're familiar, I'm sure, with action bias. Right. So many people, especially that prototype you mentioned, white cisgender male privilege, usually more senior in the company, a lot of influence and authority and power to make change or not right? Sometimes. All right. Tell me what to do, Sacha. All right. I'll do this. Boom. You go do it. And then it's like, okay, we're done it's like, no, you did one thing. Maybe you did two things. Thank you. Awesome. Where's the ongoing reflection, the ongoing change, the ongoing commitment? So I think my book is called A White Guy Confronting Racism, and the subtitle is very intentionally called an invitation to reflect and act. So I 100% agree with you that the action has to happen, and it can't happen without the ongoing reflection or else it's going to be limited and it's not going to be as impactful. So how do we build that stamina as people talk? Dana Brownlee talks a lot about that in her writing. Right. Like, how do we build that racial stamina around? Okay. This is something for me as a white, cisgender, straight man who I do have the privilege of coming in and out of the conversations, coming in and out of the action. How do I and how do you and how do people doing this work? How do we get people to have more of a stake in the long game? And this goes back to what I was saying about my kind of journey. I think a lot of white people in senior positions, especially not even in senior positions, but people, they don't think it impacts them. Right. White people, we don't think it impacts us. We think it's like, oh, it's about you. And it is. And I'm not saying racism impacted me the same way it has you or any other. Obviously there are differences, but it impacts all of us. Right. And how do we each given our racial background and so many other factors, how do we be relevant in the conversation? So that to your point, we take the ongoing, consistent, constant actions that are going to drive change.

Yeah. I wonder. You just said just kind of click for me. I'm having all these AHA moments this week left me in my green tea or something. It's layers, right? There's layers to this shit. Right? There's just layers to it. And it's the individual. But it's also how does that individual impact the organization? Right. And that's just kind of like one checklist. But then again, it's cyclical. It's okay. And then how do I reflect on that? So it goes back and forth between individual and organization. And it's not a checkbox. It's ongoing, constant work that has to be guided to some degree, but there has to be some accountability built in as well, too.

Exactly. I'm so glad you bring that up. I'm literally halfway through an engagement with a client, a big tech client, and I'm working with their how do you describe them? There are about ten of them. They're all white. I think there might be a couple of nonwhite folks, and they're responsible for onboarding new employees into the organization. So they're kind of like an L and D kind of emphasis. Right. So they do welcome to the organization. Here's how you do this. Here's how you do this. And they have some trainings and they have a little bit of D&I stuff, but not really. So they invited me in and I'm facilitating a series of four conversations with them about a week apart. We've done two. We're doing two more in the next couple of weeks. And then afterwards it's going to be one on one coaching. And in between the sessions, their assignments, their reflections, they're, hey, come back next week with thinking about XYZ. We're going to talk about it. And what I'm noticing or the way it was designed. The way I designed it was the first session was how do we show up? Right. It was how do we show up before we get into, like, dimensions of diversity and bias and microaggressions and privilege? Yes, we're going to cover all that stuff. And we started to in our sessions, but I wanted to anchor that. Like, how do you show up? How are people seeing you, these new people into the organization, most of them new in their career, they're eager, they're excited. And if they're from different backgrounds than you, are you recognizing that? And are you appreciating that? And are you supporting that? So if I'm a first generation person of color coming into my first tech job, first generation College graduate, that's not the same as a white person who's three generations of corporate work and kind of used to this, right? Yeah. They both are still new in their career and they have a lot to learn, but they are different. So how do you show up for that? And how do you center empathy and curiosity and humility equanimity these types of things?

Yeah. And there's also assumptions built into that. Right. Because I'm working with a client now and I'm talking to all of the people of color on this particular team. And I have come to discover that one person appears presents as Asian, but in speaking to her, she was adopted by, I want to say, Irish or Scottish family as a child. So that's her background. That's what she knows. That's the culture that she's aware of. But because she's Asian presenting people that are on the team, we're assuming that there will be a connection and there's not.

Yeah.

And so it's those types of things that how do you show up and your lens. Right. That lens that you see the world again, shaped by those things below the surface. It's above, but it's also below can impact those relationships totally.

And to bring it back to how you frame this part of our conversation, like the personal and the organizational, what I'm helping this group realize they have a certain they're not like most senior, but in their sphere of impact and their influence of what they do in the organization, like they're leaders they're the leadership team. They're maybe not the most senior people in the organization, but in their day to day, week to week, they are the bomb. They're the people. Right. And so how does that group of 8,9,10 people set the tone, the vibe? How do they influence above them when they do need to make changes or suggestions, policy, programmatic, et cetera? And how do they individually and collectively as a group, impact organizationally? So it's a both end, it's a yes. And the organization, the protocols, the processes, the norms, the habits, the biases, those are all affected by individual choices, actions, behaviors, et cetera. So that's what I'm trying to instill in this group. You have a lot of power. You're seen as leaders by these younger people coming in. So, yes, you have a certain part of your job is to teach and coach and support. But that can be done. You hear servant leadership. You hear all these things like, how do you do that while also being vulnerable and accessible and open to learning about and understanding. And then so you can support these differences that, as you say, like, maybe most likely are below the iceberg. 24 year old person isn't going to come in and just be like, yeah, here's everything about me now. I'm comfortable doing that as we started the show, right? Hey, I'll tell you everything about everything about me. Anyway. Change happens in relationships. I always say, until I see it doesn't, I'm just going to go with that, right. That's how it works, right?

It does. Right. Because if you make a personal connection and I think that's what I've found, too, is you start to shift mindset once you feel some type of connection to it. Right. And it goes beyond empathy. I remember being in a session which was pretty, I would say hostile. But you definitely tell folks, we're like, we're just going to sit in this thing until it's over. We're going to be done. Because it was like this very checkbox. I got to do what I have work to do. And there was this one man that was particularly just agitated about having to be in the session and wanting to just get back to work because none of this, all of it was crap and blah, blah, blah. And we were talking about privilege, which, of course, starts to stir all kinds of craziness. And what clicked was I didn't use race or gender as the example. I use disability. And I said, I'll go into a building. I don't have to think about if there's an elevator. I don't have to think about stairs or doorways big enough for me to get through. I don't have to think about those things because I am at this moment in time, able bodied. And that's what clicked for him, because his wife is in a wheelchair and they went to Disney and he was just like the things that we have to think about just in order for her to have a good time. It's very different than anybody else that goes. And it was him making that connection to his wife and that experience that opened up an entire conversation.

Yeah. So powerful, Sacha. And so relevant and so many things just came to mind as you were sharing that story, one that supports what I was saying earlier. We have to each of us have to make it personal.

Yeah.

And so that story of this guy who thinks all this is BS, and what are we doing? This is wasting my time. I've got other stuff to do. This doesn't impact me. It's like, no, it does. And for him, it's because of his wife in a wheelchair. But what is each other person's story? Everyone's got something. And so that's one of the main reasons why I Center storytelling in my work, whether it's one on one, in my speaking, in my own kind of vulnerability and sharing my eyes. Like, here's my story and here's why I care. What's yours? What's your story? Why do you care? Because I think a lot of the disconnect is especially with white folks who are newly interested and genuinely interested in doing something and changing in action. We think often that it's like this goes back to kind of the action bias. Right? Like, tell me what to do. I'm going to go and I'm just going to go and do it. Just bull in a China shop. And it's like, no, it's got to be personal to you or else it's not sustainable. And the other thing with privilege, it's interesting. I actually work full time for a company called Translator, and we do DEI analytics and training, and I think you'd be really interested in it. Sacha. We should talk about it. But one of our core experiences, we center privilege as the main entry point into the conversation, into the curriculum. And we say that privilege is the opposite of oppression. And so when you have more privilege, it takes less energy to move through the world, to navigate your day. Right. Your job, your relationships. Just the world. And we'll use like, a race analogy, right. It's like the difference between equity and equality, right. If, say, we're all going to run a marathon, and I say, all right, well, we're all going to run a marathon. There are 50 of us. Here you go. Everyone gets Nike size ten shoes, right? That's equal, right? Hey, I provide everyone's shoes. It's not going to work if you are in a size ten. If you don't. If Nike don't fit your feet, what if you need. What if you can't be in the sun for more than 3 hours like me without getting burned? Do I get sunscreen or is that extra? Extra, right. What else do I need? Do I need the little Goo packets or can I run for 4 hours with no problem? It's like this equity thing that I think some people are slow to appreciate and understand and see how it benefits some people at the expense of other people. Right. What's the line like when you're used to privilege equity? Feels like oppression. Yeah. I mean, I think we're dealing with a lot of that these days. And it sounds like your story kind of is an example of that.

Yeah. It's just again, having the conversations so that people have those, AHA, moments of like, yes, okay. This is the connection. This is why this should be important to me and not necessarily from the mindset of what am I going to lose in the process? It's like, what is the world going to gain in that process?

The expandable pie.

So you just reminded me of one of my next questions is we've talked about this. This works is difficult. It can be draining it sometimes it can be frustrating. It can also be very rewarding. And as you do this work and as you continue to have these conversations and you've written a book about these things, you're putting a lot out. Right. You're giving a lot. And so I often ask my guests the question of what do you do to fill your cup? Like, how do you what do you do to kind of revitalize and stay fresh to continue moving forward?

Yeah, great questions. So there's foundational stuff, and then there's kind of I don't want to say reactionary, but like in the moment stuff. So the foundational stuff is mindfulness. So meditating every morning, focusing on breathing, gratitude, meditations, striving for a state of equanimity, recognizing that there's a difference between passion and purpose, there's a difference between discernment and judgment. So having this not getting attached to my opinion, being invested in and committed to outcomes, but not being attached to outcomes. Right. So just kind of some foundational stuff that helps me stay committed to the work and relevant, but not where I burn out. So that's kind of core just ongoing, like preparing for the inevitable stuff, the inevitable unpredictable stuff that you know is going to happen, but you don't know what it is. So you have to be preparing for it ahead of time. So when it comes to like, oh, I can handle this. I'm good. Right. And then I think kind of ongoingly family. I've got twins. They'll be 13 on Wednesday. So they're twelve point 99 year olds.

I guess right now I got some 14 year olds, too. Okay.

Yeah. There you go. Music. I play in a band. I play in a reggae band. So we actually just booked a whole bunch of gigs for the spring and summer. So that's exciting. So there's that release. And I'm a big reader, so I know what I need to do to sustain my mental health on a day to day, week to week basis. And I'm pretty good about I'm getting better at recognizing what is realistically in my bandwidth on a week to week or month to month with opportunities, speaking opportunities, facilitating. Yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that. It's like, wait a second. Yeah, I can't fit all this in. Right. And so it's tough because we want to be part of the conversation. We want to be relevant, we want to drive impact and effect change and support. But recognizing that I have to say no to some things, and as I said, I'm getting better at that.

Yeah. It's realizing it can't be the end all be all for everyone. Like, you have to know what works for you. And I think and we've done this right. Like, hey, this thing came across my desk. It's not for me, but would you be interested? And I think that's what we need to continue doing.

Well, totally. And I wrote a post just maybe a couple of weeks ago on the four agreements, which is Don Miguel Ruiz. And it's kind of pop spirituality. Right. But it's so simple. And one of the agreements is don't take anything personally. And so I'm even like me and you, we were exploring, trying to do something together, and it didn't happen. Not because of anything personal, just didn't happen. So it's not like, oh, that's Sacha, she doesn't like me. It's like, no, it's like, hey, we're coming together when we're coming together. And if someone wants to explore something with me and it seems like a good potential fit, like, yeah, let's talk about it. And if it happens, awesome. And if it doesn't, having had the conversations and the exploration and building that relationship in many ways is just as important.

Yeah, I love it.

Yeah.

Jared, where can folks find you if they wanted to reach out?

Yeah. So I'm really active on LinkedIn, so there's probably some complicated URL, but whatever the LinkedIn, just search for me. Jared Karol, K-A-R-O-L. You can find me at my website, jaredkarol.com, again, J-A-R-E-D-K-A-R-O-L. There it is. And then my book, you can find links to the book there as well, but also speaking and facilitating and coaching. And then the book website is a white guyconfrontingracism.com/book. And there I put links to, obviously, the Amazon's and Barnes and Noble and bookshop, but also really want to support black-owned businesses. So I've put maybe three or four links to different black owned bookstores that you can find the book there as well. And a little bit on Instagram, not super active, but you can follow me there at a white guy confronting racism and reach out anytime. I'm always happy to have conversations with people who are interested in having conversations about this work.

Thank you, Jared.

Thank you.

Wonderful. I always just love the conversations that we have because we were just like, yeah, we always are in alignment. So I appreciate that part of our relationship. So thank you. So much for being here and thank you all for watching this episode of DEI After 5 please be sure to subscribe so that you can get alerts when the next episode comes out. They come out every Tuesday at 515 and we will see you next time. Have a good one.