DEI After 5 Cornel.mp4 - powered by Happy Scribe

Sacha Thompson is a respected and certified DEI coach. For the next 30 minutes, we'll get an exclusive look at some of her conversations with others in the field. Welcome to DEI After Five.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to DEI After Five. If you are here with us today, this is going to be an energizing, I promise, energizing conversation for you. We are really going to talk about how do you know you have the right DEI professional. Right. Be it someone that you're hiring, a consultant, whatever it is. And so my guest today is Cornell Verdeja Woodson. And we are just going to dive right into this conversation because I think that there's so many challenges, we'll put it that way to finding the right person. So first and foremost, Cornell, thank you so much for joining me today.

Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to this all weekend. I wore my shirt. Right.

Because sometimes it's just therapy. Right. Sometimes these conversations.

I'll be right back. Y'all, I need to go talk it out.

I started this because the timing of this is perfect. I did a lot of reading this weekend, and a couple of the posts and comments and articles that I was reading were about how can I say this? All right. We're now going into year two, three of okay. This is serious diversity, equity and inclusion work. And there was a moment prior to this where everybody and their mother wanted to be in DEI. Right. Oh, I have a passion for it. Oh, yes. This is wonderful. Lovely. Racial unrest happens and all of a sudden it was crickets.

Yes.

And I know I'm seeing in my consulting practice lots of people or organizations that are like, yeah, we hired someone to come in and help us, but it really didn't get us where we thought we were going to go.

Right.

Right. So I want to hear from you because you've been doing research in this space. We've been talking about this. Let's start kind of at the beginning of like, what are some of the qualities or some of the things that people need to consider before even coming into this work?

Yeah. I think another piece of it, too, is also there are good people doing the work really well but are being assessed inappropriately as well. I think for folks who are looking to get into DEI, I think the question has to start with the why. Right. I think a big why is critical because I think sometimes you get into this work with a personal because it stems from a personal experience. Right. But the work goes non. Just me as a black gay man. Right. So when I'm doing work, I'm also focusing on women of color, trans women, trans women of color, people with disabilities. And so I need to be able to speak to a cohesive DEI strategy or folk eye that really is intersectional. It goes beyond just me and the personal piece of it. And then also I think that being able to educate and advise and coach others in these topics is really critical. So to me and some people might judge me on this one. But if you're a DEI professional and the way in which you bring in DEI to the workplace is to always hire and rely heavily on other consultants, then I don't feel like you're a DEI professional. And I know that's probably so bad, but it's my strong opinion that you have to be able to have that context. And that wherewithal internally to be able to advise and coach your leaders on the day to day. If you're relying on me to come in and do it on the day to day, then what are they paying you for, in my opinion? And so I think that's super critical that you have the background knowledge and historical knowledge to be able to guide organizations through the journey.

You know what? Yes, I'm putting this in the context of pre-racial unrest and post- racial unrest. And I saw because I experienced it within the organization that I was in this influx of DEI professionals that were, I'm just going to say, white women that had no experience in diversity, equity and inclusion at all. Right. No lived experience, no educational experience. They had a passion for women's issues and gender.

Right.

And it was just passion. But to your point, was it aligned to their purpose? Right, right. And I think those are two very different things. What happened. And I think what we're starting to see now is one, gender is not being put on the back burner, but it is now part of okay, let's look at this diversity, equity and inclusion thing as a full entity, not just women. And how can you lead us that point? You said, how can you lead us through this journey?

And we all need help. Right. I also call on my colleagues, go, can you help me spread this message? Help me make sure I'm thinking about this in the right way. But if I can't leave the day to day problem. And I think the other thing, one of the things I say at some of the companies that I work with and for is I say that while we will always focus on gender, but it is gender at the intersections of other identities, because what we know is that mainstream recruitment strategies have always served white women and have disregarded the intersection of race and other identities. And so in order to be able to get at that, we've got to be intentional about that intersectionality there and making sure that you're serving the most underrepresented underserved, knowing that we will capture everybody else as we continue to grow that group. That to me, is super critical. But you won't understand that if you don't have the historical lens and background knowledge of how we even got here in the first place that is so critical.

I need a tambourine

That is so critical. If you don't understand the history of all of this and how we got here, I'm not sure you can leave me here.

Right.

You're not understanding all the connections that are part of why we're here and why we're still here.

Yes. We actually did a session on the history of DEI. Right. With Lolita Chandler, and that was it. You can't tell me where we're going if you don't know where we've been in the history of this work.

Exactly.

And what lens are you looking at this work through? So when you said you can't just look at this through gender, I chuckled. Because I always ask, I'm like, okay, so what else do you bring to the table? I need to understand what else? Because gender ain't going to be it.

Right.

Because even then, I'm breaking it down to like, okay, so let's talk about trans women, women of color, not even women of color, black women. I'll be very specific. Right. And if you get squeamish when I say black or Latina or Native American or trans and you start to squeam...

Exactly what happens. Well, but no be about it. Be about it. I don't understand that. And I think we had this hard time focusing on the most underserved because we don't want other people to feel like they've forgotten that's a part of the problem. So instead of feeding into that sensitivity, into that fragility, you got to educate them on why that actually isn't real and create space for unpacking that and for that discomfort. Yeah. That's so critical to the work. But we get away from the discomfort that people feel. In my opinion, if you had left the workshop and you aren't the slightest bit uncomfortable, I haven't done my job.

Oh, that's me. I'm like, I want to make people sqeam, like if you just are in your seat, even if it's virtual. And I see this, I'm like, okay, I'm getting to you what I'm like.

Yes, because that was my experience. I did not understand my male privilege until somebody made me feel uncomfortable with it. I was like, wait a minute, that goes against everything I thought the world was and how it existed and who I was. But I'm black and gay. And they were like.

Yeah, and

Who is cisgender, and you've experienced this privilege, and it was so uncomfortable. But I needed that in order to come out the other side to go. And I get it. So I get why that space can't be for me. Because guess what? Every other space is for me, right? How do I make every other space also for everybody to do my part. But that takes vulnerability, that takes the willingness to feel uncomfortable in order to get to that point.

So that leads me to it's even deeper than why are you doing this work? It's a step before that. It's what work I need to do on myself before I need to come into this space.

Come on, Sacha, stop.

Right.

Yes.

And this is just my experience. I'll be honest. I dealt with a white woman that was in a leading diversity and inclusion for an organization who proudly told everyone that she had never done this work before. And just because of the person that I am, I'm like, okay, I'm going to help where I can.

Yeah.

But when I start seeing my help hitting you as if I'm a threat, then there's a problem.

Right? Right. If you're putting together a panel discussion about diversity within the organization and all I see on this panel are all white women and the one man of color that's on this panel is asked, how can you be an ally to these white women?

Right.

I'm like, what are you saying about what diversity is within this organization?

Because at the end of the day, if it has to be between me as a black man or a man of color and that white woman, they're going to choose a white woman over me. So who's really, in my opinion, who's allying to whom? And I think piece of it, too. We also have to add in. It's not even just white women. It's also white gay men.

Yes.

Gay men are also a part of that. I've seen many white gay men who are in diversity roles. And the minute you bring up racism within LCQ community, transphobia with an LCQ community, they get up in arms, they're leading with the one claim to marginalize saying that they have no, I don't need to be a part of that conversation because I am. No, we all do. Even a man has to be a part of that conversation around privilege and how that plays out in my work. Right? Yeah, I think it's Super.

Super critical and it's leaning into that victimization. Right. And I think that's the difference because it's, how do you not become a victim? Right. With me and the fragility tiers that we see, how can I lend my privilege, honorably to do this work? Right. All aspects of myself. Because I know I've come into situations where people are like, oh, how can I help you? Right. You're a black woman in this corporate space. How can I help you? And I'm just like, well, how can I help somebody that's disabled because I'm able bodied at this moment. Right. That's how I look at it. How can I lend my privilege? How can I do what I can? I'm looking at this table and there's nobody representing the LGBTQ plus community. How can I then be an advocate for them? Right.

We all have work. And I must admit, because we own this topic. I think. In my experience, even black people, when you start challenging them on privilege, they go, I'm black. I go, yes.

And.

You suggested and you are of a certain socioeconomic status. So all of that has to be taken into account. We all got some work to do. And I think even I've got to a point where I start saying it now because I used to not out of fear the backlash that I would get from people. But at this point, this is like for death for people. And unless people are willing to really dig into the privilege and dig into the realities of how they navigate the world, the most marginalized will continue being the most marginalized because no one will step up and say, you know what, this is real. And I have to address it.

Yes. I think there's just so much to unpack with that because that work is difficult. And to your point, many people just I'm not ready for it. I don't know. And as part of my coaching practice, those are some of the conversations that I have. Right. Let's unpack this in a, quote, unquote, safer space, because I'm not going to say safe, because I'm not going to cuddle feelings. That's just not my job. But I am going to ask questions that are going to cause you to really think about, okay, what am I seeing? What am I saying? What am I doing? And how do I challenge myself in this space? Right, sorry. And it's like, how do you do that work and then step into well and simultaneously do this work? Right. Because I think there's also this misnomer that you have to be. And Katrina Jones and I talked about it in our episode. It's like, okay, yeah, you got to have a PhD level and this DEI stuff and you're done. And you can now help educate others. Like it is this constant journey. So how do folks that are in this work, even starting or mid career or later in their career constantly do this work on themselves as they're helping others? Like, what are some ways that they can do that?

Yeah. For me, it's a constant appetite for knowledge. Right. And so I'm paying attention to Katrina Jones. I'm paying attention to Michelle Kim. I'm paying attention to all the heavy hitters of people who I respect, who are doing the work, who are doing research on this, who are providing new insights. So I'm constantly consuming new information that helped to inform the new ways I need to be thinking and shifting and how the world is shifting. But I think a part of it for me, too, is also the community that I keep around me as well. Right. When you have a good community, they'll keep you humble and they'll remind you. Right. My friends will be like, but this and so having a solid group of people who will challenge you and create that safer space for you to be able to unpack that. I think it's super critical if I have people in my sphere who are constantly affirming me always and only that's not helpful because that means when I need to be checked and challenged, you won't do that out of fear that you might upset me. And sometimes that anger and that frustration is a part of my journey that you're keeping me from. But I also need to develop a hunger for new knowledge and constantly asking myself. One of the things I used to do in high school, I was that student. Every Friday, I would go home and reflect on the past week. How did I show up in school today? How did I show up in my interactions with the people in hallways? And I still do that today. Right. Every week. How did I show up in meetings? How did I show up on that podcast? How did I show up? Did I interrupt people? Right. And that constant desire and willingness to self reflect on how do you show up in the world can reveal so many different things that allow you to go, where did that come from? How does that connect to identity? Right. And how I navigate the world?

Oh, my gosh. Okay, so that part right there, that goes back to the emotional intelligence session that we did and just understanding and being able to step back and identify not only just how did I show up, but what was I feeling? Because if I was frustrated, did that come across to other people? Right. How does that manifest in my day to day? So it's understanding the emotional, like having that high EQ. The other part is that circle of support. Ask everyone, like, who's in your circle of support? And it can't just be to your point, folks that are just going to be. Yeah, I need someone that's going to be like, girl, you need to sit your butt down.

Yes

Let me tell you about yourself, right?

Yes.

You need those folks. And I can't remember who I was talking to the last couple of days. And they said, is that your mom? I'm like, sometimes it is my mom. Sometimes it is a family member, sometimes it's my boy. Whoever it is, it's someone that I know that will because it's coming from a good place. They want me to see from a different perspective or think about something in a different way. Right. And I think that keeps me on my toes quite a bit.

Yeah. And it doesn't mean that I won't get upset or frustrated. Right. But it just means that I'm going to take space to feel what I'm feeling. Right. To unpack it. Right.

So let's do a little pivot. So I'm an executive at an organization. We're starting this DEI journey, right? Yes. Because I usually use school have a degree in education, so I'm always thinking about school. So we are in middle school, right. We're not quite just starting. Yeah, not quite in high school or College. We're like right there in middle school at that awkward stage.

Yeah.

What do I need to do or what do I need to look for in a DEI professional that I'm hiring from my team?

Yeah. I think one, we have to understand what it is that we and this is hard because I think most organizations don't even know how to assess themselves, so they don't know what they don't know about themselves. And they usually bring in that professional to help them assess the organization. But I think someone who has the ability to devise a POV on the organization and can show you examples of what they've done in the past to use data to show you here's where you are. Here's how I would assess where you need to be based on a benchmark of this data through the Bureau of Labor Statistics and things that sort so that kind of conversation tells you that they understand the language of how to use data to assess and what to look for in understanding where you are. And a lot of people lack that piece. Right. In having that. And then I think the other piece is understanding the historical aspect of these social issues. They're not new issues. They come from real history that still permeates in our organizations today. Does that person have an understanding of that? Here's one thing I think is critical. So I've applied for many jobs before for DEI roles, and I always leave wondering, how do they know that I'm good? They don't even know. So how are you assessing me for the role? I think you need to call in another expert who may be a consultant to say, can you sit on our panel for this role? Right. And have them assess? Is this someone who knows? Maybe they're not perfect. There's areas for us to help them get professional development to grow, but they've got it. And they're someone who's really going to help us get to the next level. But I always wonder how organizations who are just getting started or even those who have been in it for a while, how are they assessing their DEI professionals when they themselves don't know what it looks like?

Yeah, I love that. Two things now come up for me. One, I think that is the case for so many companies and what I have seen, and I've actually had conversations with folks. They've created these DEI committees where it's off the side of their desk, and they're not DEI folks, and they're being asked to then look for someone or hire someone and they don't know either. Right. So it's a catch 22 to some extent of the blind leaving the blind for in some cases where executives are giving it to a committee that doesn't know what they're doing, and then they're supposed to go find a consultant to help, but they don't even know what to ask for. So there's that piece of it. The second part of what you were saying was, okay, let's say I'm the executive, and I don't even know if I want a full time person because we don't know delay of the land. We don't know what we don't know. So we're going to hire a consultant to kind of be our pseudo full time person.

Yeah.

Right. That's the other piece that comes into this. And so as an executive, that's thinking, okay, I want to hire a consultant to kind of do this full time job part time. What are some of the roadblocks to that?

Some of the roadblocks to having someone who's pseudo part time?

Yeah.

I love this question. I think in my opinion, in order to really be able to guide an organization, I need to really be deeply embedded into your organization. So even as a consultant, I have stopped taking on these little short term projects. I'm like, I need to be with you for a minute, and I need access to your employees. I need to be able to understand the lay of the land in order for me to really be able to say, here's what I think you should be focusing on, because I understand the context with which your organization is in. And so the part time, it doesn't mean that it's not possible. It just means because you're limited in how much time you have. Right. And so you can get done in that time is also limited. And so it just happened that we have to be very thoughtful and intentional about how are we embedding this person into the day to day of our business. So they understand the nuances of things, and they're not just getting a whole set of numbers in terms of their engagement survey or identity sentences and things that sort and that's all they have on us. I want to be able to focus groups and really get in there and sit on all hands. Right. And to be able to really understand, like, here's what I'm seeing is coming within your culture that's super critical. So again, I think it's possible, but we got to be intentional about that. That when you have a full time person, they're in it in the day to day. They're sitting in so many different meetings. So they have a different lens. Your consultant or your part time person may not get that in the same way. How do we help them get there so that they can truly guide you and coach you?

And I think that that is the critical piece. Right. It's not just coming in to do a one off workshop that's just kind of the standalone. It's How do you embed. I have a client that I'm working with now that wanted me to do some work around psychological safety. Okay, great. I could easily come in and just do that. But as I'm having conversation with them, I'm hearing that the people of color on their team are having a different experience.

Right.

Okay. So I set up one on one call with them to really get a lay of the land, because I'm like one, we're going to talk about psychological safety, and I'm going to have this information in my back pocket. But now I'm also hearing that there are microaggressions, that there's poor communication, that there's some coaching that needs to happen with some leaders.

Right.

So I'm hearing all of these things that now as a consultant, I can say this is how I can best serve you. Right. Versus this one off. And so I think that's a critical piece to this crawl is not just kind of being that checkbox, because I think checkbox is what has gotten to us to this point.

Yes, 100%. Right. And to be able to say, actually, I've gotten bolder in that in my own practice. Actually, no, I don't do it that way. And here's why I don't think that's the best way to do it. This is how I think you actually should be doing it. And even for the clients that do call me and say, hey, we need a training, I go, cool. But here's how we're going to do it.

Right.

Build out a curriculum that is connected to your company goals, that align with the values that you're doing so we can show how it all connects and that it's not just a one off thing that's on the side of the business. That is part of it, because that's my opportunity to influence, to show those senior leaders that this isn't just some fun thing that we're doing or some nice to have. The thing that we're doing. This is connecting to all the things that keep you up at night as a senior leader. The business success of it, the health of it all is reliant, too, on this piece here. And I think a lot of the times with the conversation that we need to have around all this assessment of DEI professionals is really how we begin to add rigor and standards to our field. Right. My background is also in education. I worked as a student affairs professional for a number of years.

Me too. Me too!

Field coming in, faculty members were always the end all be. They were the President, the Dean, they were everything new professional coming in like, what do you do? You're a babysitter. So people didn't understand where to put you, who should report you. What are the standards? And at some point, Student Affairs has now two, three professional organizations that set standards for what it looks like theory that guides to work. I think DEI has yet to start now getting to that point. Across the board, we have a lot of customers who are using theory and research to guide how they do what they do. But it's not an overwhelming culture or part of the DEI ecosystem. I think we need to start moving into that because that will begin to set standards for what does effectiveness look like. And the reason why this is a passionate conversation for me is because oftentimes the easy answer to that if we increase underexpensive groups, and that means you were successful. But I don't own that vertical.

Right.

So I tell people in my company, I'm a super influencer. I don't own hiring, I don't own marketing, I don't own content. I don't own any of the things that I'm supposed to have an impact on. So how can you equitably hold me accountable for things I do not own?

Right.

What are the metrics that go, okay, Cornell or whoever has done this, they've been successful. We may not have increased on representation of marginalized groups, but Cornell did his work to help get us there. What are the real barriers that have prevented from that? Right. It's a whole domino effect for me.

Yeah. And it talks to a couple of things. One, this work is interdisciplinary because we've kept going back to understanding the history. I think there's psychology, sociology, anthropology, like all of that is tied into this work. All the things, Ironically, in higher education. Right. Those are the soft Sciences. Those are the things that you can't get money or a career in those things. Right. Because I'm a sociology major. Right. I use it all the time now. But it's that piece of it. And as a business on the business side, because again, I have an MBA. DEI is a part of every aspect of the business. It's not just HR.

That's right.

Which historically it's been. And so how does it impact accounting and marketing and product design and all of these other parts of the business? Right. So to your point, how can the work I do permeate through the rest of the building and the organization as part of the DNA and not just butts and seats.

And we hold them accountable,

and there's accountability

In how they bring and embedded into their DNA. Right. Only they can do that because they're doing the work. I'm over here ready to coach. I'm ready to give my thoughts and show you the research, but you've got to make the decision to do the thing that needs to be done.

Yeah. Well, this could be a whole other conversation because I honestly believe that DEI should report into the CEO and HR reports into the DEI office. But that's going to be a conversation for two more things. One, we've talked about you are so passionate about this work. And I think that passion and purpose and I said at the beginning have to be aligned. It can't just be the passion. Right. You have to see that this is a part of your purpose and the reason why you do what you do. And that can take a lot out of you. And so what do you do to kind of refill? What do you do to help get you back into like, all right, I'm whoo sahh'd, I'm good. I can go back into the office today.

Yeah. And as I mentioned to you before, this is a big part of my 2022 plan is getting better at that. What I have instituted right now is, for example, I don't log on my morning time. The first part of my morning is for me. So that's meditation, whether that's in my hot tub for 30 minutes and sitting in silence journaling. Right. Because sometimes I'm sitting during the day with the thoughts in my head and I'm just ruminating on them. Getting them into my Journal so I can pull out themes has been really helpful, to be honest. Playing my PS five. Sometimes when I'm overwhelmed, I go sit my boat on the couch and I just in silence and I'm just playing my PS five. And it just helps me. Right. Walk with my dogs and talk to my husband. Those are the things I regularly implement in my day when I was like, I just need a breather and I need to like, and then I can come back to this. And those are things that really fill me up with joy that allows me to come back to the work.

I love it.

Yeah.

I love it. And we're going to work on the plants that we talked about.

Yes, absolutely.

Go on and bring in the plants.

My husband is doing that this weekend. Yes.

Good. So if people wanted to get in contact with you, what is the best way for them to do that?

Yeah. So you can reach out to me via my website, www.bravetraining.com. There's a contact me section there, but also on LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn as Cornell Verdeja Woodson.

Thank you, Cornell. Thank you so much. We could have gone on for like another 30 minutes

This filled my cup Sacha this filled my cup

It's all about filling the cup, because I think these are so important. Like, these conversations are important. And it's not just a matter of wanting to get into this work, but understanding what you're getting into when you're doing this work and what you need to know. And all of those, because those are the things that people don't tell you every time someone reached out to me and said.

I want to get out and go, okay, let's talk. Let me tell you the real real because they may look cute to you, but.

Right.

Hard. And if you're not about this life. And I also tell people, too, sometimes what we need is actually people in the marketing wing who focus on DEI. Right. So if you're already in marketing and you have this passion embedded into your work because they don't necessarily always listen to me, they don't listen to you because you're one of them. So if you're an engineer wanting to get DEI, can you make a change in the seat you're already in? Do you have to come to DEI to make a change? Right. So thinking about that is I think it's critical, too.

Look, that's a whole other conversation because I was in marketing and it was seen as a threat when it came. We won't go there today. So thank you so much for joining us. I think. Oh, my gosh, I'm just excited about this. Yeah, this has made my day too. Thank you. Thank you so much. And everyone, thank you so much for joining us. For DEI after 5, please be sure to subscribe because we're going to have more conversations like this in the coming weeks and we will see you on the next have a good one. Bye.