Kimberley John-Morgan FINAL.mp4 - powered by Happy Scribe

Sacha Thompson is a respected and certified DEI Coach. For the next 30 minutes, we'll get an exclusive look at some of her conversations with others in the field. Welcome to DEI After 5.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to DEI After Five. So I know every week I say I'm excited. I'm thrilled to have this next guest. But today, for real. For real. This is one that is near and dear to my heart. And we'll talk about why in a moment. But my guest today is Kimberley John Morgan. And I am just thrilled to have you, Kimberley. And the reason why this is near and dear, because I'll just tell everybody all of our little secrets. So Kimberley and I met via LinkedIn. Of course, as most people meet during these times and we're having this conversation and we're just connecting and clicking and vibing. Then all of a sudden I'm like, wait a minute, your last name is John. You happen to have people from St. Vincent and then coming to find out, we think we might be related. So we're still trying to figure that out. We've been claiming each other as cousins ever since.

Of course, yes, family is family.

But what I appreciate about you and your work is your authenticity and your voice in this space. We have very similar. How will I say it? Voice in that it's unapologetic?

Yes, ma'am.

It is what it is. And so I wanted to talk to you about that. And what led you to keeping it real because you have to in these times.

Yeah. Wow. What led me to keeping it real? I think once you get to a certain age, you just lose that filter. You know? And I embrace all of that. And I look forward to getting older. I really want to be an elder where I can just say whatever I want, but also in terms of just dealing with workplace rhetoric. You know? Employers that say that one thing but don't act on that. And so just growing tired of that. Growing tired of just going in circles. I'm like, I'm just going to say the things and say all the things and say them very loudly and not sugarcoat them because trying to keep an appease comfort is not getting us anywhere. So I'm like, these are the things that I'm thinking. Other people must be thinking them. So I decided to just start putting them out there. And that's kind of what led me to where I am right now.

I love it. I appreciate and I don't know if it's the algorithm in LinkedIn or what, but every day when I log in, your content is like in the first or the second thing on my feed.

Oh, wow.

Like every single day. And so I'm like, what's the dialogue we're having today? I love just that dialogue because it's so real. I've probably had or witnessed some of those conversations. And so what I take from that is one this is what I like to call, like, the dirt in the corner. These are conversations that have that we have that people don't realize. Okay? These things happen every single day within almost every organization. And as we call it, sometimes it's the foolishness. It really is. Like, I can't believe that people are still having these conversations.

Yeah.

And then you get so many comments on those dialogues. So talk to us about how it's landing on people.

Oh, wow. For those who see themselves in my post, it lands spot on. And a lot of people are not able to comment on my posts because they are so afraid of what their employers are going to say. So my DMs blow up on a regular basis with people just affirming what I'm saying. On a rare occasion, I'll get somebody that not so closeted racist who will try to intimidate me on my own post. And that's why I've had to limit my comments to just my connections, because I'm not going to create this open space for people who face isms to share their experiences, only to be harmed. So obviously, I'm doing something right. If I'm making people mad, if I'm making people who hold those discriminatory beliefs true to their heart, if they're getting upset by what I'm saying, that I'm saying something. Right? So, I mean, I take all of it because I know that's the chance I take. That's the risk I take being in such a public sphere. But really, I'm here for the people I'm here for people who face isms people who everyone has a voice, but not everybody can use their voice.

And so some people may not be able to use their voice, but they can use mine. So that's what I'm here for. And so for the people that I'm here for, it has landed quite well.

Yeah. Like I said, I just love everything that you put out. And that was kind of the connection. Right. So it was, oh, my gosh, I found someone that is unapologetic in this work that is using their authentic voice, that is doing so in a way that makes people shift in their seats. Because I'm like, if you're not feeling some level of discomfort, then there's no way that you're going to change. Right? Change comes from being uncomfortable. When you think about a butterfly becoming a butterfly in that cocoon, it's not comfortable. Right. But that's the process you have to go through in order to emerge as a butterfly. And so as you're doing this, and I'm thinking also about your job. Right. So you are in communications, you are a writer. And I often talk about how companies want to get these writers out there to do the PR piece of it. Right. Make us look good and want things to be pretty and everything is perfect. But what we're finding, especially over the last two years in the DEI space, is what's happening internally is not necessarily what's being reflected externally. And so talk to me or talk to us really about kind of making that connection between the two in your writing and in your communications work.

So I've had a few, not too many, because I think a lot of corporations are a little afraid of me because they realize when they sign me on, I don't play. I come in and we're going to do the real work. And if they're not doing the real work, I will not help them sugarcoat the work that they're not doing. So the few corporations that have come to me, I've questioned them. I'm like, Where are you doing the work? Show me your metrics. Let me talk to the people who face discrimination in your organization. Let me see evidence of the work before I will sign on to work with you. And for many of them, that's just too much effort. Where I'm like, I'm not really asking for a whole lot. I just want evidence of what you say is a value that you hold true. Working with corporations is a very sticky space because I am a talented writer, and I am the first to admit that I worked very hard at developing my craft. And so I will not allow my voice to be misappropriated or used by an organization to try to gaslight employees. I mean, if I was a different type of person, if I wasn't at this stage of evolution of my life, I could use what I do and just use it for ill gotten gain and really cause a lot of harm. And I'm very aware of that. I'm very aware of that. So most of the work I do is with other DEI consultants. So people who work in the space who need help amplifying what they're trying to do, their products, their services, their training offerings, because, again, I can write really well, get into other people's voices, and be able to just put that polish on what they're trying to do without diluting it. And so that's really who I'm here to serve are the people in the space who need to just move their work along. And so in addition to that, I also have developed a series of training resources to support those in the space. You've probably seen my Performative Allyship Theater, which, honestly, it started off as a joke. It started off like, me and a bunch of my friends were just chilling, pandemic, chilling in our little bubble. And we just started like, you know, when you're with your friends, you just spit stupidness, right? Like, things come out. And I was like, wouldn't it be funny if somebody said this? And then the idea hit me where I'm like, you know what? The thing is that people who cause harm in these workspaces, they can't hear themselves. We're laughing and joking about it because we have dissected it. We know how harmful it is. We see it, we hear it. We know it. But those who are perpetrating this don't know it. And so I created this whole series called Performative Allyship Theater, which started off as a joke, but it's funny because it's true. And so I pull out all of the language that people use when they're trying to be as inclusive as possible, and they're actually being really harmful. So I've turned those into training resources again to support the DEI space, because I know very well which side of the fence I'm sitting on. And I'm here for the people who are doing the work.

I love it because it is I mean, I talk about the Performative piece all the time, right. I'm going to use the NFL as an example for a season or two things, two seasons and racism, and we're all in this together and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then I'm just like, internally, it's just the foolishness, right? Nothing has changed at all. And every single year after year after year after year, it's the same conversation around lack of number of coaches or executives or everything is still the same. And so regardless of what you put on the field, literally, it doesn't matter. It's all a performance, because nothing internally is changing.

Exactly.

And so many companies do that very thing. It's, oh, we're going to put black and Brown people on our brochures, and we're going to make sure that they're at our recruiting events and all of this. But when you look at the numbers, you're having conversations of, oh, why is there only one VP of color in our entire organization of 40,000 people? Yeah. And I think calling out the performance of it is important because it is just really a show for many of them. And I think for people that are in marketing and communications, and PR, it's a hard place to be right now because do you continue the performance or do you really start to be authentic in what's happening? And I want to get your thoughts on that, because in my mind, we've talked about this. I did a big portion of my career in marketing. And it's about I've always believed that if you come across as authentic and talk about the dirt in the corner, that people are more attracted to you and for you to say, oh, no, everything is great. Everything is wonderful here's. All of our black and Brown people that are happy, here they go. But then you talk to black and Brown people within the organization or even someone with a disability or whatever their thing is. And they're not having that same experience that you're putting out there. Right? And so that's what get circulated is just a bunch of lies. So how do you feel about that?

I've got huge issues with it. And so this is why a lot of people don't like to use the term Call Out, but I call people out. We need to get to the point of calling it out because I'm polite enough, but I am not going to soften anything up and I don't sugarcoat. As I always say, I do not sugarcoat. People need to understand and hear what they are doing, and they need specific direction on how to stop doing what they're doing. And so I feel like I'm on a one woman mission sometimes to really call out all the things. And it makes organizations really uncomfortable, makes them very uncomfortable, because there's so much ego at play. There's so much money at play. They're more concerned about their optics than they are about people. And that's really what I'm trying to break down, is to say, you know what? You need to put your egos aside. You need to put the money aside and really look at what you are doing by way of harming people and how you are holding back careers and how you are just denying opportunities to people. And I think a lot of C-suite people have never been talked to that way. Because there's this idea that, well, because I have a certain title, because I sit in the C-suite, because I have all of this grandeur. Nobody can dare talk to me like that. And so I'm the first one to sign up and say, yeah, but I'll talk to you like that. I'll tell you the truth. And you're going to hear it from this little black face with these locs and all of it. All of this is telling you about yourself. And so, I mean, someone has to do it. I'm happy to do it. I think more people should be doing it. And I understand the privilege that I have being removed from the organization. So there is privilege. I can say whatever I want because they don't have to retain me. And once my retainer is finished, they're done with me. Right. Whereas the black and Brown people, the disabled people, the LGBTQ plus community who works in that organization has to stay there. So when I enter into a space, I try to speak as loudly as possible for as many people as possible, because I'm just like, I don't have a dog in this fight, but you all need to hear it. So that when I leave, I've caused enough disruption so those who are facing harm can have a little bit more breathing space.

And I appreciate that. I think that's the piece of this, because there's so many DEI professionals, I would say professionals versus practitioners. Professionals that are in the space to coddle sensitivities. Right?

You're touching on things, Sacha. You're touching on things. Yes!

Versus practitioners. True practitioners that want to put the words into practice, that want to make things actionable, that want to move the needle and push people outside of their comfort zones. And that's exactly what you're talking about. Many people I will always go back to when I was working with a coach. I'm still working with this coach. She's asked me the question of, where can you make the most impact inside or outside of the organization? And for the longest time, I held on to the inside of the organization. All I'm in here and I want to do. And what I realized was I had the proverbial shackles on of that organization. I couldn't say the things or even I said the things. Then there was punishment that came behind that and using my voice. And so now that I am, I like to say I went through underground railroad and now I's free.

Yes, ma'am.

I can say the thing. I can push back. I can step away from clients or I could step away from organizations because it's like what I'm seeing here doesn't align with my values in this space. And I'm not about codding sensitivities. I am about, let me help you push your boundaries and be a support system for you as you work through that discomfort. Right. I'm not going to just make you uncomfortable to make you uncomfortable, but how can you learn through that? And I think that's the piece that I appreciate about the work that you do, because it's like, let me make you uncomfortable, but let me help educate you through this process as well, too.

Yeah.

And so that's the piece that I think so many people or organizations are missing is having that ability to have someone that's going to one push them or partner with people internally because again, they're limited. Right? So how can I partner with someone that's in house to help you make people uncomfortable? Because I can say the things or you could say the things that they can't say. And then how do we get through that education?

Yeah. And I think the education piece is the key. I feel like where the resistance comes from, in addition to a lot of things, is a lot of organizations, a lot of C-suite people, they've been told, don't do this, don't say this. Don't! Don't! Don't! They've gotten a list of don'ts. But I feel like we need to pair that up as practitioners. We need to pair that up with here are the things that you should be doing. So we're going to take this away and we're going to replace it with this. And that's where what you were saying about the education piece, they have to go hand in hand.

Yeah. So in the work that you do, because I think people will go to your LinkedIn page, they'll see your work and they're like, okay, she's a ghostwriter. Like, she's a Casper. How do I use her? Right. So if there are practitioners that are listening that want to be able to kind of tap into like, okay, we need another voice in this. What are some things that they can do in working with you or some things that they could just kind of do on their own to start doing, getting their voice out.

Well, one, I think all the practitioners follow me because they're fantastic. They give me life. They're so good. And I appreciate that they give me space to have these conversations. One thing they can do is they can go to my e-store, they can buy my training resources and use some of those in their trainings, in their workshops, their sessions that they're running within their organizations. Because what prompted the store was I'm thinking and the concept for the store happened about six to eight months ago where it's like the people out there who are on the front line must be tired. They must be tired of coming up with example after example, case study after case study. And I'm like, you know what? I'm a great writer. I can just write these resources, and then they make that available to them. So anyone who wants to engage with me, they can definitely check out my e-store. It's available access to my website, and then I have things at all price points in there. So for the brand new practitioners out there who are independent consultants, they are more a couple of free pieces in there as well, because I'm like, everybody deserves a little bit of my salt. Everybody! So they can go and take some of those. Yeah. So I would say that's, like the primary way if people want to engage with my content and work with me. Another way would be if I've had a couple of these where people are building online courses or they're building internal training, and they need to have specific examples that speak to things that have happened within their company. But they obviously want to maintain privacy and whatnot they don't want to air the names of the people, but they need a situation. They need a scenario to be ready to speak to a certain type of ism that has happened time and time again in the organization. I am a very creative mind. And so I can create a series of scenarios that they can use as part of their training deck to speak to specific issues within their company. And so that's why I would say, call me, commission me, put me on a retainer, tell me what the issues are. And I can write a whole bunch of things that can call out the things without calling out necessarily the individuals.

Yeah. And I think that that's so powerful because I've used scenarios in quite a few of my training. And what I find is so many of these organizations get these trainings that are the abstracts. Right? Like, it's just things that happen out there. That's wonderful. And it's great. And we're going to talk about these definitions. Great stuff doesn't happen here.

Yeah.

I love to say, okay, let's take that. And then let's look at the data from your last survey. Internal survey. And based on what we just learned. Right. How can you interpret this data? And then go into scenarios, because now it's like, okay, now it's real! Now the stuff that your people are saying and experiencing and doing, and how do you respond? That, I think is another piece of this, too, that I appreciate the scenario piece is when it's real, people freeze, they don't know how to respond. And so that's the education piece of these are the resources that are available to you. This is how you respond, et cetera, et cetera. I love that you offer that because so many people don't want, "out" individuals within their organization by telling the stories. But being able to take a situation, change a name, change a gender, whatever it is, to be able to still get the same impact.I think is critical.

Yeah. And it's very powerful. Yes. One of the things I'm playing with right now is I'm trying to write a series of case studies that will write the case study in first person because I find that a lot of case studies are written about people. So Jane walks at this company and this and this is happening to her, which it tells the story, it gives the scenario, and it gives all the things that are happening. But I feel like there's something really powerful about writing the case study in first person so that the employers and all the people who are reading it can really understand the impact of how that person has experienced the workplace. And it takes from the theoretical to the practical. So that's something that I'm definitely working on right now. I've been toying with it, seeing where the words kind of fall. But I really want to dig deeper into that because I feel like it also gives people who experience discrimination an opportunity to tell their own stories or to see themselves in the stories in a more powerful way, not a passive sort of like voyeuristic way, but putting them in the primary seat as the person who should be paid attention to.

I love it. I absolutely love that. As we've talked about this before around taking time off.

What is that?

I'm taking a month off! I'll see you on the other side. But I think it's important in this work, too. And it's such a theme throughout. All the work that I do is when you're in this space, it takes so much out of you.

Right.

Because especially for you, I would assume that when you're writing, like the creativity that could be draining to some extent, in addition to doing this work, that is already somewhat draining, too. How do you take care of self?

Right.

How do you fill your cup? What do you do to make sure that you are fresh and ready to just stay vibrant in this space?

Yeah. I think that's something I'm constantly learning. I think it changes every quarter because it depends on where I'm at, what I'm doing. I think a big part of it is sleep. Get as much sleep as possible. I'm way more creative once I'm rested. If I don't get enough rest, then I am just cranky, and nobody wants to be around that. It's just not pleasant because could you imagine cranky salt? Like, I'm sorry. I try to make sure I get enough sleep. Like everybody, make sure you drink enough water. I'm learning to take time away, and I'm learning to also limit the number of projects that I take on. I mean, I look back on the body of work I did for 21, and I'm like, who was that woman I don't even know? I had? I think it was like 231 posts across both of my platforms on LinkedIn, my company page, my personal page. Then I was also on Instagram, and then writing for myself, writing my own blog, and then writing for other people on top of that.

Right?

So coming into 22, I was just like, yeah, I can't keep up with that pace because I'm tired. And so I've learned to take on fewer projects, deeper projects, but fewer of them. So sort of decolonizing my workload has been a huge help. And then I also have accountability partners. I have a great partner. I have fabulous sisters who are just like, have you slept today? Did you eat today? Who always just remind me to just step away. But it's a constant battle because you're passionate about the work. I dream about it. I dream about writing. I wake up with ideas about writing, so it's hard to fully separate myself from it. I would say last week I had to have dental work done. I had a root canal, which was not fun, and I was forced to take five days off, which felt like an eternity. This is my first day back to my desk, and I was just like, oh, that's what that feels like. You're actually fully step away from your desk. And what I learned from that experience is I like it. I do like it. And I think the main thing I want to try to do for 22 is to take back my weekends fully. I don't do any client facing work on the weekends, but I always am grinding on something, like working on a little something here, here. I think I need to take my weekends back fully. So when we have this conversation again a year from now, ask me how I'm doing with this, because right now I'm not fabulous at it.

I can help you with that because I'm all about everything. 05:00 shut down.

Really?

I closed my office door. Unless I have a call that goes off, I close my office door. I don't come back in here. Right, because this is the space. And then I don't come back until the next morning where I'm like, okay, I'm good. I can come back in. But that's something that I had to build toward. I had to build to that because when I think about the first time I actually worked. I worked in higher education, so I lived and worked in the same place. And that was something that I learned very quickly of, okay. Cutting off work and the personal. But again, it's something that I had to evolve and said something about even just taking that time off and taking back your weekend. I think that's so critical. Like, this weekend, I had some projects to work on, and I'm like, you know what? I'm going to just do stuff that's not going to take a lot of thought process. Let me rewrite some notes, because I'm trying to get rid of paper and on this whole electric notebook thing and trying to do things like that where if I'm going to work, it's going to be productive, but I don't have to put a lot of brain power behind it.

I'm hoping that once the pandemic is over, that that will allow more space between the work and time off. Where I am, we just came out of lockdown five, and that was like last week, I think it was. So what else is there to do? You can't see your family, you can't see your friends. The only places I go are the grocery store and the pharmacy. And so what else is there to do but work? So I'm hoping once the pandemic kind of eases and things clear up a little bit more, that there'll be more space to do other things.

Yeah, I so appreciate this. And I think the one thing that we both kind of the family connection is connecting back to the roots and listening, because I listen to Soca in the ground every now and again. And then for some reason today, my cup within my cup is Mauby.

All right then!

That is what I'm sipping on today, because I think those are things, too. That kind of helped bring me some peace and comfort in doing this work.

Yeah. I mean, you have to protect your mindset in this space and have the things that remind you of who you are. I mean, if you look around my background, there's all sorts of stuff in my office that just a home office, obviously. But it just reminds me of why I do what I do. And it's just a matter of protecting your peace and reminding yourself of your culture and where you come from, because that is the most grounding element of all. I look at this and I'm just like, yeah, I'm doing this for me, obviously, for right now, for people who look like me and people who face all sorts of isms. But at the core of it, I've got young ones that are coming up after me where I want to be able to say, all right, here you go. I'm going to pass this on to you if you want it if you want to pick it up and take what I've done that much further. Beautiful. But also just to show them that black women can do what they want to do in the world of work, the only way to demonstrate that to them is to demonstrate that to them. So I take it very seriously. So on days when I'm feeling like, yes, I don't know if I'm going to do this today, I'm just like, what would I tell my niece? What will I tell her? I don't want to tell her "yeah, Auntie got tired and just packed it all up and decided to go live in a hut in the middle of nowhere" because some days that sounds like a really enticing idea.

Amazing, actually, yup!

Yes. But I really want to be able to stand up to her and say, you know what, here's how you work through the hard times. Here's how you take care of yourself and here's how you exist in a world that is so harsh and so dedicated to working against you sometimes, but you still hold value and so I have to be able to demonstrate it if I want them to learn it.

Kimberley, thank you so much. If people wanted to find you, you talked about you're on LinkedIn. You're on all the things the website, so we have your website there. Perfect.

Thank you.

Thank you for this because I think that there's so much that people need to know about just tying that authentic voice into this work and making sure that it is truly moving the effort forward and not just window dressing.

Yeah, right.

And I think that's a critical piece of this and the self care piece because I think that's paramount in everything that we do.

Absolutely. And thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you for the ongoing conversation. Thank you for the jokes and the DMs. I love all of it.

Yes. Thank you. All right. So, everyone, thank you so much for joining us this week with our guest Kimberley John. See how you forget the last part. Morgan. I get stuck on the John because that's the family part. I thank you so much for joining us this week. Be to subscribe, find us here. Find us on your favorite podcast platforms and we will see you next week. Have a good one.