Katrina Jones- How to Detach From Toxic Workplaces - powered by Happy Scribe

Sacha Thompson is a highly respected DEI expert and certified coach. She and her network of friends in the DEI profession often talk shop after work. They're bringing those after hours conversations to you right here on DEI After Five with Sacha. Let's get this conversation started.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the second episode of DEI After Five. I am so excited about today's conversation because my guest today is my sister friend Katrina Jones. We are just going to go ahead and jump in and get started. Welcome, Katrina.

Hi. Thank you, Sacha. Thank you so much for having me today.

Oh, my goodness.

So excited to be here. So excited to be reunited with you every time we get together.

Yes. Today we are really talking about how do you detach from toxic environments. We both know -- what that's about, how that is. And so I really wanted to spend this time kind of talking to you about that experience and some of the things that you were able to do as a practitioner in this work, because I think that's what makes it so difficult. It's part of your job, right? It's part of your job to try to reach out and speak for those that don't have a voice. But then when you find that that becomes you, it becomes much more difficult. So talk a little bit about your experience and some of the things that you learned through that process.

And I'll say came back to this idea of detachment. And I say came back because I was first introduced to the principle of detachment, the framework of detachment through Alateen as a child with a loved one that I was very close to who was in recovery. And so I used to go to Alateen. I knew all the steps with Al-Anon. And so it was in this last couple of years where this idea of detachment kept resurfacing in my life. And it came up in a few different ways. First, from a mental health wellness practitioner that I used to see who suggested this to me one time when we were in session, that I could perhaps just remove myself and not care so deeply about this work. I'm saying work, but it's beyond a professional, current professional title. And I always say this about my work and DEI, that it is my life's work, and it's really hard, and it is the most meaningful, most profound work I think that you can do in this life or some of the most I'll say that. But when that practitioner initially introduced or reintroduced detachment and not with that exact language but just not being so connected, I just immediately rebuffed that because I thought, no, I can't do that, right? This work is too important. And I don't want to be detached from the work or from my environment. This is more than just a job, and this is more than just a career art for me. And it planted a seed that planted a seed where I got to think about, well, hold on, what does that mean, right. For you? And does it have to look exactly like what that practitioner person was suggesting? And so it led me to actually go back and go pull out the principle of detachment as articulated by Al-Anon. And when I did, it resonated so deeply, and I just want to share the definition of it. We can level set on what we mean when we talk about detachment. So I mentioned detachment as a principle and a framework. And Al-Anon and Alateen. And it's essentially about separating yourself emotionally from the effects of someone's behavior and actions. In particular case in the way that it's used within Al-Anon spaces, it means separating yourself from the effects of someone's behavior that's affected by alcoholism. Right. And so if you Google it, you'll come up with the kind of guidelines for detachment. But when I read it honestly, I had a spark of genius and thinking about how does this how might this apply to me in separating, yes from unhealthy environments after you've been out of the after you've left the environment, but also separating even when you're in the environment.

That's the piece I wanted to talk to you about because so many of my clients that are practitioners. That's the big struggle. Right. Because they feel like in some a lot of this work. Right. They're not just advocating for others, they're advocating for themselves, especially if they're from marginalized communities. And so how do you detach from this work emotionally if you're using those principles when it's so much a part of who you are?

Yes. And that, I think, is you hit on something that is what makes work so challenging. Like I always say, doing the work while you are the work. This doesn't stop for me when I close my laptop. This is how I live my life. It is a part of my everyday in terms of fighting against racism, against sexism, of also navigating racism and sexism on a daily basis in a way that's so loud. Right. And sometimes subtle, but often really loud. I mean, we could just look at last week where the murderers of Amad Arbury were found guilty. And that was wonderful. And prior to that, a few days or a week prior to that, Kyle Rittenhouse has been found not guilty. And so those are public moments that affect people. And folks are also having these experiences in their everyday life that they are dealing with. And that is beyond, I have to say it is beyond because it's hard to separate yourself. I do think with detachment. And what I love about this as I started to pick it apart and revision it for my life and for myself is it really made me think about what would life be like for me if I didn't have to deal with the constant factor of racism and so how could I use detachment as a principle, as a framework to let go of some of the emotional turmoil and tumult that comes in dealing with the symptoms of racism? well-beingI think the power is in it. It is in refocusing or focusing exclusively on yourself, on your well being, on your success, and, most importantly, your peace. Right.

Yeah.

Which is what the detachment really is about. It is about how you yes, there is all this stuff that can happen that happens to you or happens in the environment. And how do you sit outside of that? Because one of the illustrations of detachment says that it's neither kind nor unkind. It requires you to sit without judgment, to see it. Right. And that doesn't mean that you don't have a reaction. You might see something, you observe it, you have a feeling about it, you might have an initial judgment, and then you set that aside. And that is what I think will really help and support professionals who are doing this work. Especially doing this work.

Yeah. I mean, what you just said made me think. Sometimes you just have to let go. Right. It doesn't mean that you don't care, but you just have to let go because that anger, frustration, whatever that emotion is, can start to take over and manifest in your body in certain ways. And we've talked about this a lot. Right. But I detached. It was truly this emotion of, okay, what do I need in order to acknowledge what has happened but not hold on to not live in that moment? And I think that's the piece that I think a lot of people need to start to realize or recognize in this work is you have to do those things in order to acknowledge and then say, okay, this isn't feeding me well. And so what do I need in order to do that? And so as you think about this in your journey, we've talked a million times about this, but what were some of the steps that you took to start detaching?

Oh, gosh. For me, it was being conscious of and shifting I'll say being conscious of the feelings, the judgment that I was having, and then being intentional about shifting away from it. Right. What I would do would be to stay in the space of the feeling, the judgment, the emotion, and cycle through that. So instead of moving to the next, stepping away from it or seeing it and then stepping outside of it, I just kept cycling through it. And to be clear, it's not a bad thing that that happens and that you might do that because it's something that is so natural for us, especially when you experience paper cuts that have compounded into wounds over time and never heal. Right. It is really hard to then step outside and step away from that cycle, that vicious cycle of staying in the feeling, ruminating in it, and staying with that judgment that you've assigned.

There's two things you just said. One, I think we also need to step back and determine or identify what are the things that have caused those cuts. Rather than going through the cycle and getting cut over and over again. Like, okay, what are the things that are cutting me and where are the traumas happening and being able to identify also your triggers. Right. Like, what are those things? Because I know one of the challenges that I had getting out of a toxic environment was I loved the people that I worked with, and I stayed connected to them. Then my wounds never really healed because that scab was constantly being picked off. Right.

You're still in it, right. People are coming and saying, oh, my gosh, you won't believe this latest thing or this is a tragic like, let me just download and just give you the news at five. And I think the other part that you just hinted at is establishing boundaries. That was part of it, too. So step one for me was being intentional about acknowledging what I was feeling about honoring that, feeling, the judgment that I was having and holding that as a precious gift and then saying, okay, thank you. I'm going to put you over here now. It's time for you to move. For me to move elsewhere. I did that. And the other part of it was establishing boundaries to say, for example, this isn't a healthy conversation for me to engage in. I'd love to talk about how you're doing. Right. I'd love to talk about what you're up to, how's your family and shifting, shifting to something else, another topic, and also where you need to setting boundaries about your relationships with people.

Yeah. You know what's interesting. I think that's one of the reasons why coaching became such the critical part of the work that I do, particularly for practitioners, because I started going in coaching mode. Right. Like, rather than letting people stew in the complaints, it's like, okay, well, where do you see yourself five years from now? Right. And I would start throwing these questions out that would have them thinking like, okay, wait a minute, did I just go through a session?

Yes.

aYou need to move forward. And so I found that I was talking to a lot of practitioners in this coaching method to get them to move forward and stop that spinning. Right. Or at least if it was an iteration they realized, okay, this isn't where I want to be. So what do I need to do in order to get to where it is that I want to be? So you've talked about setting boundaries and kind of understanding also your limitations to some extent of what you can take in. If there was one thing that you wish you would have learned earlier in the process, what would have that been? What would that have been?

Oh, gosh, we don't have enough time. So I think the one thing that I wish I would have learned earlier was that part of the reason and I'm now working within my own business and working with clients and advising and consulting on DEI strategies programs and also leading and facilitating a lot of education, a lot of workshops. And in part of that, one of the things that I just become really cognizant of that I wish I had learned earlier with that I am not a vessel for someone else's journey. Yes, I've got tremendous expertise. I've got a very unique and special skill set. It's what makes me so great at my work and especially working with clients who are ready to do this work. And I can't be a vessel for somebody else's journey. And I think there is often a tendency. Right. You want to save, you want to help, you want to support, you want to empower people. You've got your superhero cap on all the time. And I just really had to recognize that I cannot be a vessel for someone else's antiracism journey or their recovery from racism. And the other isms that they're experiencing that I could certainly provide expertise. I can provide counseling, advising, coaching. But I was not responsible for their failure or their success in that journey or for any aspect of that journey.

Yeah. I was taking that in because I think that was a lesson that I had to learn. I also had to learn that. And I learned this early on. But not everyone is in the same place in their journey. And so I always describe it as practitioners - a lot of practitioners....Not all practitioners - are what I would call at that PhD level of this work. And we have to realize that there are some folks that are still in pre K that may have higher titles. This is the very beginning of their journey. Like, they're just now at Sesame Street learning their Alphabet. Right. Like, they're learning what is D, what is E, what is I and I had to kind of get through that frustration of understanding that not everyone is at the same place in this journey and knowing who I could work with, what part of the journey was best for me to work with.

endpoint. Yeah. Because everybody starts from someplace, right. No, we're not born. Right. Like super woke. And that's part of that expertise that we've cultivated is being in this from an academic, educational, but practical standpoint as well, engaging in all of the learning, the knowledge, et cetera. And there's no end point to the journey. It's not that you get to a certain spot and you say, okay, level.

Right.Like, I got my doctorate, I'm good. You are always learning. And so looking at it and seeing it in that way, I think allows you to honor where other people are in their journey. It doesn't mean that folks aren't accountable or not accountable for their mistakes or for any harm that they may intentionally or unintentionally perpetuate. But it is honoring that everybody starts somewhere that everybody hopefully is moving along in their journey, and we are all on one.

Yeah. And the AHA I had with that was part of the toxicity I was dealing with were people in leadership roles that were in pre K. Right. In their journey. And it was recognizing that and realizing, okay, I have to come about this in a different way, but also do so in a way that is not where the toxicity isn't poisoning my spirit, my soul. And so that was a balancing act, particularly towards the end of my time. But what I also realized and you talked about it a little bit was you can't be a vessel. Right. For everyone and everyone's journey. And there's so much of this work for practitioners. Like, we give so much to so many people, and it's a constant give and it's a constant taxing. But it is taxing to some degree emotionally if you are truly invested in this work. And so one of the pieces of this that I always talk to my clients about is who's filling you up? Like, how do you fill you up? And so as we talk always just like, okay, what are you sipping on? What are you drinking? And today I have coconut water. Right. Because it's the refuel. There's comfort in that for me for some reason. And so the question I have like, what do you do to fill your cup?

This is a great question. And by the way, I'm 150% with you on coconut water. When I drink water, that's what's in my cup. Today I have water with a splash of lemon. Because after lots of eating and drinking last week, I just want to be healthy. Like my five year old says, "be healthy, flush things out". And coconut water also is like fulfilling on a whole other level. Every time I drink coconut water, it feels like love. That's what it feels like. Love is going into my body. I think for me, the way that I have refilled and tended to my, I'll call it tended to my garden. That's what it is. It's really investing in loss of therapy, investing in healthcare, honestly. Going to the different doctors and making sure that between therapy, general practitioner, between other doctors, that I'm really taking care of my physical health as well as my mental health. And part of that also has given me tools. Right. Where I'm more conscientious about what I'm feeling, what is surfacing for me, what it might be connected to, often connected to something from your past, from your childhood. So being able to see those things more clear has been incredible, honestly. And then aside from just recognizing what I'm feeling through those different experiences, for me, it's also about doing things, engaging in different. And it's little things. It's not like, okay, I make sure I go to the gym five days a week. I would love to do that. But the way that my sleep is set up,

Right!

It just does not come together. But it's little things. Like I will go walk in the grass. It literally helps ground me. And it is healing. It does something to me spiritually, mentally, to feel the grass and the ground on my feet. And so sometimes I'll just go take a few minutes and I just go walk around barefoot. I go run out and go get the mail barefoot because it's grounding. And it's to me that I'm connected to the Earth. Right. That there's something much bigger than me.

You just reminded me I used to do that as a kid. All the time. I would go outside or like, there was this one little spot of the yard that was always just muddy.

Yes.

And I just love to play in that even as a teen. Would just love to squish my toes in the mud. And my mom was like, really like.

Country girl. And I had to remember that, right. Yeah. I used to do the same thing. I'd be walking around barefoot as a child, as a teen, all the time. I never wore shoes outside. Yeah, right. And it felt good. And that's all I knew as a child was this feels good, right? I don't know why, but it feels good. So sometimes you just have to return to that.

And that's why one of the questions, one of the main questions I always ask my clients is what brings you joy? Like, and it's not about work. It's just those little things. It's those little things that make you smile that you just love. Like a random one for me, I love jumbo marshmallows. Don't ask me why, but I will eat, like, a whole bag of them and just be in my happy place. But it reminds me of my childhood. Right.

I love toasted marshmallows. And it's my favorite. Like, we have a guest. I'm toasting marshmallows. We also have a little part. Yeah. That gooeyness.

Yes! Yes!

What brings you peace? If it's you find time to take a longer shower, meditation. And for me, the trick is consistency, because I'll do it when I find myself in a hard spot. And I think one of the other things that I've learned is I can't just pivot when I'm in a hard spot into all of these practices suddenly because then I'm just throwing kind of at my systems. Right. Like, take this medication, take this walk in the grass, take this therapy session. But I need to for meditation, for instance, to be a regular practice. And so I would find ways to I'm taking my meditation in the shower. Right. Nobody's seated in a chair or anything like that. Taking a five minute, ten minute walk with my dog. These are things that you have to have some consistency with and figure out what is the one thing that you want to be more consistent with and just give yourself that time.

Yeah, that's your you time, right? Yeah. That's easy time. So, Katrina, where could people find you?

So you can find me my website, Equityequation Plus.com, so you can find me on my website Equityequation Plus.com. You can also find me and please sign up for updates to be on the mailing list. I am launching my website in early 2022 and we love for you to be part of this community. So please go to Equityinclusion.com, sign up to receive updates. You'll be on the mailing list. You'll be notified as soon as the site goes live. Of course, you can find me on LinkedIn and on Twitter. And if you're looking for a diversity, equity and inclusion adviser consultant, someone who can also facilitate education and learning, you can find me again on Equityinclusion.com on LinkedIn. But please get in touch. I'd love to work with you.

Yay. Thank you so much, Katrina, for joining me for this episode. This has been absolutely phenomenal. We could go on for hours. We have gone on for hours before so thank you so much for joining us. And I just want to thank the audience thank you all for joining us as well, too. And we look forward to seeing you in our next episode. Have a good one.

Thank you. Sacha.